John C. A. Bambenek ([info]bambenek) wrote,
@ 2004-12-01 22:56:00
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The Waxman Report on Sex Ed
You can read the report here:
http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20041201102153-50247.pdf

Or the news article here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26623-2004Dec1.html

(FYI, linked be Drudge in Red despite the fact he supposedly only writes conservative things)

I can't quite evaluate many of the claims because the course material is not available, but let's deal with a few things that I can.

First, I'm sure the liberal pundits are going crazy saying "A Ha! This is why abstinence education won't work!". The study points out 2 of the 13 tentative courses are accurate. That's right, tentative. The report itself says these are the prospective programs that the grantees will use, and I'm sure after this press, probably most will not use. From page 9: "Each summary contains a proposal listing the curricula that the program intends to use." So two of these 13 programs are just fine to use. Use them, and all objections go away.

Second, in the bluring the scientific-religion line section it states "Although religions and moral codes offer different answers to the question of when life begins, some abstinence-only curricula present specific religious views on this question as scientific fact. One curriculum teaches: “Conception, also known as fertilization, occurs when one sperm unites with one egg in the upper third of the fallopian tube. This is when life begins.” I was unaware that science had a firm definition of when life begins in the first place. Not to mention, I fail to see much religion in the above portion, sure some religions hold that, others don't, but there are atheists who also hold it. Further, from m-w.com (not precisely a religious site) the definition of life:

1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings -- compare VITALISM 1 c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

The qualities of metabolism, growth, reaction and reproduction all are present in varying degrees in an unborn child. Moving on.

Third, in the same section "One curriculum that describes fetuses as “babies” describes the blastocyst,
technically a ball of 107 to 256 cells at the beginning of uterine implantation, 70 as “snuggling” into the uterus:". The word snuggling is objectionable? Of all the nit-picky crap to waste tax payer money on printing he chooses this? Some of his earlier points he has something (if true), but this is just stupid.

Fourth, Another teaches: “At 43 days, electrical brain wave patterns can be recorded, evidence that mental activity is taking place. This new life may be thought of as a thinking person.”72 The curriculum cites a source which does not in fact call a 43-day-old fetus a “thinking person.” Waxman should learn to read and know the difference between what the author is citing and what the author is saying. But this is again, childish semantic crap.

I'll grant him some of the stuff quoted if true and in that context make for curricula probably not best for schools. So use the 2 that Waxman approves of then. Case closed.



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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 03:02 pm UTC (link)
The Post account directly contradicts your statement regarding "tentative."

From the article

"Many American youngsters participating in federally funded abstinence-only programs have been taught over the past three years..."

Note the use of the past tense, not future tense.

Please stop lying.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 05:01 pm UTC (link)
I directly quoted the Waxman report. So if Waxman lied in his report I repeated it. Fine, Henry Waxman is a liar. You win.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 05:56 pm UTC (link)
From the Waxman report:
"At the request of Rep. Henry Waxman, this report evaluates the content of the most popular abstinence-only curricula used by grantees of the largest federal abstinence initiative, SPRANS (Special Programs of Regional and National Significance Community-Based Abstinence Education)."

You:
"The study points out 2 of the 13 tentative courses are accurate. That's right, tentative."

You then quote Waxman (who never wrote the word tentative), who refers to PROPOSALS for the program - from which information about them was obtained. But these were proposals from a program already in use - you even make a case that "most will not use" the programs, which of course means that you think some have and do.

Where's your outrage that the government is allowing such things to be taught in our schools, even to one class - ESPECIALLY prior to the release of this report?

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 06:38 pm UTC (link)
My point is that most will not use the program AFTER this press. Sure maybe some use it, but the information uses all grant requests, so that infers to me, that it isn't widely used yet. But that's really a semantical quagmire. The curriculum can be, and I imagine in alot of places, will be changed.

I'll admit that if Waxman is right about his points about say the 31% failure rate, and that the curriculum have it and it is in context, then yes, we should move these programs out of the school. What my point is that, Waxman should have stuck to the obvious things that no one will dispute (i.e. condom failure rates) instead of adding in semantic stupidity like criticizing the word "snuggle" being used.

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 09:06 pm UTC (link)
You beg the question of if the schools will stop using the disreputable but approved programs.

You state that "it isn't widely used yet." This is about as accurate as your prior insinuation that the report called them tentative programs. From the report:

Curriculum Number of SPRANS recipients
using the curriculum:
Choosing the Best Life 32
Choosing the Best Path 28
A.C. Green’s Game Plan 23
WAIT Training 19
Choosing the Best Way 11
Sexual Health Today 10
Me, My World, My Future 8
Friends First/STARS 8
Why kNOw 7
Navigator 7
FACTS 5

I'm not sure how we define "wide."

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 03:26 pm UTC (link)
So you're ok with the fact that eleven of the programs, which both you and Waxman denounce, are being suggested for use by our government?

That's ridiculous. Stop lying just to push for your side.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 05:00 pm UTC (link)
As I said repeatedly, I'm in no position to evaluate most of those claims, but if true and in the correct context he has a point. That's also why I said then we can just use the two "ok" ones.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 05:32 pm UTC (link)
But who's going to ensure that we do use only the two "ok" ones - which I must remind you are denouned in Waxman's reference further through the report to studies that show abstinence-only education isn't effective.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 06:35 pm UTC (link)
I dispute the claim that abstinence education isn't effective, but then again, I dispute the need to have any sex-ed in schools at all. It should be the parents jobs, and I'd support all the programs in the world (ok not all the programs) that educate and empower parents to educate their kids. This works for those anti-drug programs that reel in parents, lets do the same for sex ed.

And as far as who will ensure the 2 get used, well the media coverage, for one. That's the point of bad press, to encourage good government action.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 07:44 pm UTC (link)
Well the people who wrote those proposals obviously had some reason not to fear bad press didn't they? It doesn't appear that your theory works.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 07:48 pm UTC (link)
There is a difference between thinking you won't get caught and a fear of bad press.

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-03 02:40 am UTC (link)
Abstinence ONLY education isn't as effective as a complete sexual education. You seem to keep forgeting that word!

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-03 04:39 am UTC (link)
I have no problems with parents teaching their kids whatever sexual ethic (within obvious bounds) that they see fit.

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[info]scarshapedstar
2004-12-02 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Methinks that is you sieze upon 2 truths out of 13 as if they validate 11 outright lies... you're full of it.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 05:02 pm UTC (link)
I can't quite parse that comment.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 05:44 pm UTC (link)
If you honestly can receive no meaning out of that (presumably out of spite) then you have no business pretending that you have some advice to offer on this subject.

The attempted point made in the comment you ridicule is that you yourself recognize this program as flawed by an overwhelming percentage of ideas, so therefore how can you support it?

Who is to stop such lies as offered in the eleven "bad" programs from being taught to our children? You recognize that only 2 are ok, and yet you show no outrage that such lies were suggested for this program in the first place.

THAT's the story here - and the reason the Post ran with it. The administration is once again financing lies to push its agenda.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 06:44 pm UTC (link)
The comment wasn't grammatically correct, and I'm not going to break out into an English lesson.

I can support the program because there are 2 good courses that can be used that Waxman finds no fault with. Who is to stop any bad program done by the government? We are. It doesn't matter what it is... a sex-ed program, a program to spy on all citizens, whatever. That's our job and our responsibility in a free society, to keep the government in check.

And I don't show outrage because I'd like to read the curriculum before I come to judgement on it. If Waxman is right on the non-stupid points, then fine, kick those programs out. But I have worked in various government agencies throughout my life and the entire system is geared towards wasting money and in many cases, outright deception. I'm not outraged because it's par for the course.

But if the courses are wrong then they should not be taught. But that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether abstinence programs should be taught. There are lots of bad programs in science, mathematics, english, (pick a subject). That doesn't mean we should through out those programs too. If there are 2 good programs, use the 2 good programs.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 07:28 pm UTC (link)
But you're missing why this is a major news story. If the report was about deceptions in math being taught in schools I doubt people would be as concerned with it.

And I see no instance where you've bothered to point out that anything in Waxman's report is untrue - you've only pointed out that no study was done on the classroom actuality of the lessson.

But that isn't the problem. The problem, and the reason this report is a story, is that the government has funded a program that suggests such lies are appropriate for teaching in our schools.

You say the solution is to just teach those "2 programs," but you and I both know that there is nothing in the language of those proposals that says such lies can't continue to be taught. Media is great for uncovering problems - but enforcing their correction is a much bigger job, that requires electing honest lawmakers in the first place - I wonder who YOU voted for?

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 07:36 pm UTC (link)
I'm not in Waxman's district, so naturally, I didn't vote for him. And it's not up to the government to keep the government honest. That only leads to exponential growth in bureaucracy where you have organizations policing organizations who police organizations. I totally disagree with this philosophy that we just need to vote some guys into office and not keep them in check.

The decision to include these programs was probably made at the school board level. So parents should hold those board members accountable. It's just that simple. The second we as citizens relegate our responsibility to keep the government honest, the government goes full cocked to start screwing the public.

Sure, some schools may use bad programs, they use plenty of bad programs in plenty of other subjects. Where's the outrage there? Where's the outrage that our graduating seniors rank behind graduating seniors in some third world countries?

Yeah, we need honest people in office, and this decision was made by local school boards. Take the fight to them.

And I did point out some untrue things. First of all the claim that life starts at conception is not a religious claim at all. There is hardly any scientific consensus on that issue. There are professors here that don't think "human life" starts til age 5, or the age of reason, etc. There are those that believe it starts at conception. There is no widely accepted definition, to claim one definition of religious is silly. That's like saying every time a woman wears a hat in public she's practicing Islam. Sure, some religions hold it, but there are scientists who have scientific reasons to hold conception being the moment life starts.

Arguing about the word snuggling is just stupid. Criticizing sociological observations as non-scientific is also stupid, because by definition, any sociology is not scientific.

He makes some good points, but he pads it with some dumb claims that if he didn't have in the first place, this piece would hit a lot harder.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 08:29 pm UTC (link)
I give up. You've completely misconstrued what I said and you're not making an effort to understand it.

1) I was referring to voting for honest people who write laws, not those who investigate them later. I don't know where you got the idea that I thought you voted for Waxman - that's silly.

2)And it's not up to the government to keep the government honest? I'll leave that one at face value. Yes, we should hold them in check through media, but our only assurance that they might be honest with policy in the first place is to not elect or give credibility to people who believe such crazy things as touching genitalia will get one pregnant.

3)"I totally disagree with this philosophy that we just need to vote some guys into office and not keep them in check." When did I say this? My point was it'd do us some good to elect honest people, who wouldn't allow such lies to be suggested for school programs, as was done by the grantors in this case.

4)"... parents should hold those board members accountable." They should also hold accountable anyone who suggests that such lies are adequate to be used in curriculum "proposals."

Let me try to clear up some confusion. Michelle Malkin has refered to your post here as a "takedown" of the Waxman report - I thought perhaps you should know this. It's becoming clear to me that "taking down" this report wasn't your intention, because that isn't what you did. But that description from Ms. Malkin might be part of the reason I'm here.

"He makes some good points, but he pads it with some dumb claims that if he didn't have in the first place, this piece would hit a lot harder."

This piece hits hard because it brings to light the proposals that were written by the federal government, these proposals include outright lies, which were written to improve efficacy of abstinence-only education through misinformation.

You have no evidence that these lies, among the "13 most popular" curriculi, aren't being taught in our schools, funded by federal tax dollars. The likelyhood is that they are, something you yourself point out and that's a horrible thing, is it not?

Yes, the school boards which allow this are wrong - and so are the people on the federal level suggesting such lies should be taught.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 08:37 pm UTC (link)
2) The school board made those curriculum decisions. Are you suggesting that all curriculum decisions should be made at the federal level?

3) Great, I agree. And in this case, the ones who made this decision were on local school boards.

4) Fine, I am assuming those people are on or affiliated with school boards. I don't purport to know the governance structure of the schools involved.

As far as these outright lies, I can't confirm them except to say that he includes lies such as "life starts at conception" and "snuggling" as a part of that. This was my quick pass. I'm not saying some of the evidence he presents might not be damning, I'm saying he includes a lot of dumb things in his report which aren't lies but are either semantics, or people teaching an opinion that is contrary to him.

He may have cherry-picked the data, but including some things that don't even pass the smell test calls into question his entire report. Can I debunk the 31% failure rate? No, I don't have the curricula.

But I presented a couple of quick things on first pass of the report that indicated that this might be a report to say abstinence education is bad (with 2 courses he couldn't touch, I'd disagree).

I'm not saying that the 11 courses aren't bad, per se. But if a couple of them only suggest life starting at conception and that's the only problem he has with them, he's inflated his numbers.

There is some definite things wrong ASSUMING that he is reporting them correct and in context, I'm not disputing it because I don't have the information to.

I am disputing the things I can address which makes this look more like a hit piece than a real report. Is it a takedown, per se? When I talked to Michelle last night I told her it was my quick first past as the story broke. When I can look at the courses, I'll let you know what I think about their content.

But let's get a couple things straight.

1) I don't think lies should be taught to kids about sex.
2) I don't think the schools should be in the sex-ed business.
3) I wouldn't mind programs to help parents deal with the topic.
4) I CERTAINLY don't think the federal government should be making curriculum choices.


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[info]kabooi
2004-12-02 05:46 pm UTC (link)
>_> I don't remember that report saying anything about "tentative" programs... These programs are already in use, and they suck

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 06:39 pm UTC (link)
Read what I said, read the reference in the report, then get back to me.

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[info]yuda
2004-12-02 07:01 pm UTC (link)
The word tentative does not appear even once in the report. Simple use of the "find" function in Acrobat demonstrates this. It's been further pointed out to you that the report, in fact, discusses that these programs are currently in use.

Try being a little less hacktastic, please?

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Ok, tentative is my word... read the quote that I gave you. Proposed programs...

Some may be in use, some may not. It doesn't give any further information that that.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 07:30 pm UTC (link)
And it's an outrage that the government has allowed it.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Then take it to the local school board that made that decision.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Yes them too - a wonderful idea. And while we're at it, take it to the people who wrote such prospective curriculums.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 07:49 pm UTC (link)
It's a free country and a free market, use the tools at your disposal. Make your voice heard at those school boards and at the business. Be my guest.

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[info]daveyjay
2004-12-02 08:36 pm UTC (link)
And you continue to list the "Drudge Report" as a "news site" on your Web page.

You're right, it's a free country.

You're right, no one ever said we had to be accurate or fair in our political writings. But you know? It's good practice and it leads to a better country.

You don't seem to be advocating that.

It's a common conservative trait to remain satisfied when the public is misinformed in your favor.

Forget the big stuff - just nitpick over words, and don't bother to worry over the actual problem.

It's a free country afterall - we all have to right to not give a crap.


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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Then serious, why are you here?

To flame a conservative?

To try to get me to see your side of a religious debate?

If you think I'm dumb stop wasting my time.

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It's a conservative trait to remain satisfied with misinformation
(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, and it's a liberal trait to just flat out lie about something for political gain. What about the draft? You're nothing but liars and I don't believe anything you say. Like Sauraman, your words stand on their heads. An insult from you is a compliment.

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Re: It's a conservative trait to remain satisfied with misinformation
[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 10:17 pm UTC (link)
For a second I thought I was the only rightie here. :)

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 09:10 pm UTC (link)
You insinuate here that the programs Waxman's report mentiones are "proposed" and that they may not be in use.

This, of course, is not accurate. All thirteen are in use - below are the usage statsistics, from the report. I have inserted *s in front of the innacurate materials:

Curriculum Number of SPRANS recipients
using the curriculum
*Choosing the Best Life 32
*Choosing the Best Path 28
*A.C. Green’s Game Plan 23
*WAIT Training 19
*Choosing the Best Way 11
*Sexual Health Today 10
*Me, My World, My Future 8
*Friends First/STARS 8
*Why kNOw 7
*Navigator 7
*FACTS 5
Sex Can Wait 5
Managing Pressures before Marriage 5

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 09:12 pm UTC (link)
I took that insinuation from Waxman's report calling them the programs the grantees "intend" to use.

That's a little over 100 or so place, I'm not sure if I define that as wide, but I base my assetion on Waxman calling them intended courses.

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 09:29 pm UTC (link)
Come on, you're smarter than this, that's not what the report says at all. The data came from the accepted proposals that recieved funding in FY 2003. The proposals included what curriculum the grantee intended to use. This is the best and presumably 100% accurate proxy for surveying each of the grantees for what program they did use. Do you have any reason to believe that in FY03, programs moved around?

"At the request of Rep. Henry Waxman, this report is a comprehensive evaluation
of the content of the curricula used in federally funded abstinence-only education
programs.18 It is based on a review of the most popular abstinence-only curricula
used by grantees in the SPRANS program.
To conduct this evaluation, the Special Investigations Division obtained from the
Health Resources and Services Administration the program summaries of the 100
organizations that received SPRANS abstinence funding during fiscal year
2003.19 Each summary contains a proposal listing the curricula that the program
intends to use. The Special Investigations Division then acquired each curriculum
that was listed by at least five funding recipients.20 Thirteen curricula met this
criterion (Table 1)."

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 09:37 pm UTC (link)
It's a peripheral point that's pointless to debate. You assume the programs were actually taught in 03 as well. Perhaps the grant was to buy and evaluate the material, who knows? Who cares?

Has little to do with the point that this was a hit piece that possibly took some bad programs, and inflated the numbers further by including some other stupid claims like saying anyone who says life begins at conception is making a religious claim.

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 09:43 pm UTC (link)
You're still smarter than this, and I'm not gonna let your weasel out untill you correct what you've written.

You allege now (without fact) that perhaps the grants were to buy and evaluate material. Of course, from the grant site:

"program summaries of the 100
organizations that received SPRANS abstinence funding during fiscal year
2003. Each summary contains a proposal listing the curricula that the program
intends to use."

FY 2003 - that was last year. Curricula that the program intends to use - use, not study. This was a use grant, not a study grant.

I think you have demonstrated a notable lact of respect for the facts at this juncture, and you owe the Special Investigations Division of the minority staff of the USHR committee on Government Reform and your readers an apology and retraction.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 09:53 pm UTC (link)
No, I don't because it's a peripheral point that doesn't even touch on what I'm really talking about.

FY03 has been over for a few months, why don't the use the programs that ACTUALLY have been used?

They may have seen the program and chucked it. We don't know. Doesn't matter, that's not the point.

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 10:04 pm UTC (link)
So, what you're saying is that you don't disrespect the facts because when you lie about them, it's never about the main point, only all your supporting arguments? Ok.

Let me compare and contrast the expense of two different studies to you:
1. Call 100+ projects. Find out what curricululm they used.
2. Look at the applications of 100+ projects. Find out what curriculum they said they were going to use.

Why do you believe the results of one would be any different than two? Were the districts lying on their applications?

Why do you insist on arguing pedantic stuff like that instead of just conceeding that you were making stuff up and moving on like a normal person would?

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 10:11 pm UTC (link)
Are you trolling me on my own blog?

You can't prove they are used anymore than I can prove they weren't. The applications say what they intend to use. Intention indicates they can change their mind. Maybe once they got the course they changed their mind, who knows?

Why don't you deal with the real thrust of my post instead of pidgeonholing an aside...

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 10:29 pm UTC (link)
All evidence shows they were used. Funds were allocated for their purchase. The application said they were going to be purchased. Somehow, you believe it is more likley they were not purchased. This is an astonding leap of idiocy. Congratulations - you're NOT smart enough.

The real thrust of your post is what, exactly? I tried to focus on the most important part - "First... report itself says these are the prospective programs that the grantees will use, and I'm sure after this press, probably most will not use."

Ok, now that we both know this isn't true, that the books were used last year, I guess I can move on to your second bobbled point:

You argue that science has no firm definition of when life begins ("I was unaware that science had a firm definition of when life begins in the first place.") We agree. One of the textbooks, however, does have a firm definition of when life begins: “Fertilization (or conception) occurs when one of the father’s sperm unites with the mother’s ovum (egg). At this instant a new human life is formed.”

Since we agree that science has no firm position on the beginning of life, for a book supposed to be scientific to state with certainty that life begins when x happens would be a religious, not scientific statement (because, as we've said, science has no hard definition, though religion certainly does) and as such, is ripe for inclusion in a section titled "Abstinence-Only Curricula Blur Religion and Science"

To your third point - yes, the word "snuggling" is objectionable, for a bevy of reasons. Primarily, it's unscientific. A spherical ball of cells does not "snuggle." A fully formed baby might snuggle. A fetus, perhaps, might snuggle. Blastocists do not snuggle.

To your fourth point - electrical brain wave patterns, while being recordable, are no evidence that mental activity is taking place. As you may know, electrical brain wave patterns are recordable in your house AC current. That is no evidence that mental activity is taking place. I would further note that contiuning down your cherrypicked paragraph to the next, that same text writes that "Ten to Twelve Weeks After Conception: . . .
He/she can hear and see,” citing the statement "Can the fetus see inside the uterus? We do not know," as it's evidence for this.

All in all, we know your point - you believe sex before marriage is bad. That's fine. Some people might even agree with you. What we're debating here is not sex before marriage, but the effacacy and accuracy of the Abstinence Only education programs as proposed. So far, the jury is out on the effacacy, and the accuracy jury has heard the prosecutor. Unlike a criminal trial, however, just debunking a sentance here and a paragraph there is not going to make the defences case. Accuracy requires an affirmative defence.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 10:31 pm UTC (link)
I'm not going to be trolled on my own blog.

You. Are. Wrong.

HTH HAND

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[info]hipocrite
2004-12-02 10:36 pm UTC (link)
Of course you're not, because you're unable to stand up to anyone but the caricuture of an ass that you played hankyspank with for the whole thread until I showed up.

Of course, you know all about trolling, though, don't you?

http://www.karlsruhe.org/rfc/draft-bambenek-posting-guidelines-02.txt

Don't think we've forgotten you.

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 10:39 pm UTC (link)
hahaha, there's a new version out, or was... :)

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[info]bambenek
2004-12-02 09:14 pm UTC (link)
My insinuation quotes Waxman in calling them intended curricula...

That implies not in use yet. But that is a peripheral point to my post to begin with.

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[info]dreadbane
2004-12-03 12:56 am UTC (link)
Ah, the wonderful childish ravings of the ignorant! Give 'em hell, John!

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-02 09:23 pm UTC (link)
Abstinence only programs seem to fit nicely into the Orwellian concept of "Ignorance is Strength".

WHat else should we expect from the Bush regime?

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